shadi11

[Rickin]

  Interesting discussion ! I am learning here !

[Napolean]

If IwrinsMom's BD is a adult then this should be a big worry unless it is vary skittish and flighty which is quite uncommon in bearded dragons but if the BD is a baby/juvie i would cover the sides and its not like its going to cost alot maybe $10 max and in  long it will just reduce stress with the bearded dragon so i personally don't see the point of arguing over this

[Timotei]

Hmm, im assuming from the measurements and temps that u guys are american ? Im not too sure about the metric-imperial translations, but my tank is probs a bit over 3 feet x 3 feet x 3 feet



Also, slate as a substrate ?? Here in oz we go only soil and sand substrates, i use red desert sand, altho was thinking of switching to beach. Slate is unnatural and can get pretty hot if the beardie doesnt hav a place to go, i also find sand looks better than slate anyways.

Temps for my viv, well, in celsius, its usually between 30-40 degrees in the middle, with a fairly decent gradient either side.

One thing u didnt speak about is humidity, do u guys keep barometers in ur vivs ? I've got a thermometer/barometer double in mine, and basically the rule is to keep it as low as possible, so i suppose its not too necessary to make a point on.

I assume ur all keeping P. vitticeps ? I'm very curious how did/do they ship them over to you in USA in the first place... I'm keeping P. minor minor which is a West Australian species fairly smaller than vitticeps.

[Napolean]

First off Timotei, you shouldn't use a barometer for checking your temps and humidity a sticky/dial thermometer have been proven to be off by as much as 20 degrees you should use a digital thermometer which  are quite cheap you could purchase one online or go down to your local hardware store or even some big company store will probably have one . i also see in you tank that the thermometer you use is at the top of the cage which wont give you proper cage temp seeing as heat rises and you have your at the top and having a 3 foot tall cage your going to have different temps at floor level of cage. Where do you get your sand? if your saying you just drive out and grab some don't and especially not beach sand...if your going to use any sand go to some building and buy it (your local hardware store should sell some) because if you are using calci-sand or red dessert sand that you buy from a pet store then your skating on very thin ice...and you may say you haven't had a problem "yet" but thats the key word there "yet" you may not have a problem ever but why risk your pets life?when you can just buy some safer sand at a hardware store.

[Timotei]

Well firstly, im more interested in the temp at the top end of the cool end because it gives me an overestimate of the actual temperature. I deliberately placed it where it is in order to know the maximum that my cool end can be, so i can no whether to ventilate the place, or take them out all together.

After keeping beardies for two years i've also learnt to guage the viv temp by my beardies' behaviour. I can now recognise the signs that tell me if they are too cold or too warm, and the majority of the time, it's just right. I don't use the barometer to check the temperature, thats not possible, i use a thermometer for that and the barometer for humidity. I assume by 20 degrees ur speaking farenheit ? And also, i hav considered digital thermometers, but they are ridiculously expensive. My little barometer/thermometer is not the cheapest around, but it's priced at $60 AU, i dont no how to convert that to US, but it's not much less in US dollars.

Also about the sand, i'm not sure wat sort of stuff u guys get in the USA, but over here we buy purified sand trucked in from the outback. It's the number 1 substrate used, even by the top dealers, and I cannot possibly see how slate is better. Firstly i like to think that my beardies feel at home, and so i provide the sand which they burrow in and sometimes even make little tunnels, to cool off or to brumate. Do you guys breed beardies in the states ? Cos i don't know how u could possibly breed without the use of sand, the female will simply reabsorb the eggs, or if she does lay them, they will roll and the embryo instantly die, or they will be literally fried on the surface of the slate. Sure, our beardies over here live on granite outcrops and things, but sand is actually a very important part of their lives.

So how many ppl are living in the US ? Cos over here it's law that we cannot keep any exotic species, and for good reason too. Is it true you guys have bred the beardie to colour ? If it is true, well i've lost a lot of respect for the herpers of the US.

[Irwins_mom]

She seems to be handling it just fine. I got it last Friday and I am not done with it but here it is

[Napolean]

Is it true that we have the beardie to colour? are you asking if we breed for a colour morph? if you are i dont see why or how you lose respect for US if you lose your respect becuase some one breeds bearded dragons to get a spefic colour morph then you must no have alot of respect.  I personaly prefer a more red/orange bearded dragon. I dont see how you could dislike that its not damaging a blood line unless some breeds family members together, it gives some one more verety to choose from then just a normal phase bearded dragon and if you look alot of lizards/snakes are born for colour morph's like a corn snake,ball python,leopard gecko, crested gecko the list go's on and its not like they mean anything less then normal colour bearded dragon the only difference is the colour and patterns.

[Timotei]

No my point is just that we shld not play around with the gene pool just for our own amusement. Face it, there is no gain for the beardie in breeding colour morphs, and my attitude is not wat we can do without harming them as you say. I think we shld always be looking for wat will help the herps, not wat we can get away with. That's the problem with exotics, is that most often the place where you have them does not understand the animal in entirety as they have never seen it in the wild. Here in Aus there are no exotics allowed, mainly because they cld destroy our ecosystem.

I won't go into my feelings toward the US, lol, mainly because most of them are probably unfounded and false and id just end up offending and getting into a lot of hot water, but it just seems to me that often there is a lack of respect for the gain for the animal, and more a view of how this animal can entertain me. Herps are not there to entertain us, altho wen kept appropriately this is a bonus, but to gain a greater awareness of these creatures which up til now have been quite misunderstood.

Also, the primary method by which colour morphs are obtained is by breeding siblings over a number of generations to induce mutations, i don't agree with this, and when my eggs hatch, i will trade many of my hatchlings with dragons of similar location, to avoid such things. When I keep herps i try to emulate what they wld experience in the wild, and interbreeding for multiple generations is not wat wld occur. Besides, the fact that one wld prefer a red dragon to a "normal phase" is irrelevant and ultimately not in the herp's best interest.

Again, herps are not there to be changed and experimented with to give us more "selection". I personally find that quite disconcerting.

[LizardLady]

105-110 is only for babies not adults. Adults should have 95-100

This isn't necessarily true.  All of my dragons temps run between 110-120 and the reason for this is so that they are not laying around under the basking lamp just to keep warm.  They move back and forth as their bodies tell them.  I find it has increased activity 10 fold.  I do not have sluggish beardies laying around just trying to keep warm.  It also increases breeding activity 

[LizardLady]

No my point is just that we shld not play around with the gene pool just for our own amusement. Face it, there is no gain for the beardie in breeding colour morphs, and my attitude is not wat we can do without harming them as you say. I think we shld always be looking for wat will help the herps, not wat we can get away with. That's the problem with exotics, is that most often the place where you have them does not understand the animal in entirety as they have never seen it in the wild. Here in Aus there are no exotics allowed, mainly because they cld destroy our ecosystem.

I won't go into my feelings toward the US, lol, mainly because most of them are probably unfounded and false and id just end up offending and getting into a lot of hot water, but it just seems to me that often there is a lack of respect for the gain for the animal, and more a view of how this animal can entertain me. Herps are not there to entertain us, altho wen kept appropriately this is a bonus, but to gain a greater awareness of these creatures which up til now have been quite misunderstood.

Also, the primary method by which colour morphs are obtained is by breeding siblings over a number of generations to induce mutations, i don't agree with this, and when my eggs hatch, i will trade many of my hatchlings with dragons of similar location, to avoid such things. When I keep herps i try to emulate what they wld experience in the wild, and interbreeding for multiple generations is not wat wld occur. Besides, the fact that one wld prefer a red dragon to a "normal phase" is irrelevant and ultimately not in the herp's best interest.

Again, herps are not there to be changed and experimented with to give us more "selection". I personally find that quite disconcerting.

It is true that that is how some of the color morphs were attained in the past, by inbreeding.  It is not true today at least with most breeders.  I breed for morph color and it is not to entertain me, I take offense to that.  I am a responsible breeder that researches bloodlines before I breed my dragons.  I spend hours and days researching so that I don't unknowingly inbreed my dragons.  I have reds, yellows, oranges, and hypos.  I do not have to inbreed them to get what I want.  Breeding is a serious business and should be taken as such.  There is more to it then just throwing a couple of dragons together and waiting for eggs.

Substrates:  Some people use sand but not enough to lay eggs in, we have separate lay boxes that when the female is ready to lay her eggs we put her in the box.  It is a mix of peat moss and sand moistened and deep enough for them to burrow in to make them comfortable about passing their eggs.  Then the eggs are removed carefully as not to turn them and place them in moistened vermiculite and incubated at 84 degrees for right at 60 days give or take.